Like most middle-class people I lead a sheltered life (in a relatively peaceful Buckinghamshire enclave) so it is especially shocking when I come up against really offensive behaviour.
I spent last Friday night in the A & E department of a big hospital (think Jimmy Savile). There was nothing too bad wrong with me, but I am at the age where medics like to run the full range of tests just to be sure. Not too far round the corner from my cubicle was a group of apparently drunken young men, who were hurling foul mouthed abuse at hospital staff, ripe with indignant profanity. By about 11 p..m. police arrived from time to time, but the noise continued unabated. I asked the nurse who was taking a blood sample if this was a usual event and he said that it was about the norm for a Friday night.
I have always regarded misbehaviour in and near hospitals as seriously aggravated offences, for reasons that do not need to be spelt out, but this opened my eyes to the reality that hospital staff can face.
Very nasty.
So why are they not arrested and charged with whatever?
ReplyDeleteVideo evidence is quite acceptable, with no need for any witnesses to go to Court (I know this because a) I was Jury Foreman on a case of Affray where this happened, no witnesses, we just had to watch the video and could actually SEE the violence and b) I was knocked down by a car in the station forecourt and the prosecution relied on the CCTV images, I was not called as a witness (or should I say only witness!)
Sometimes they do get arrested. But, if they need medical treatment they are going to be staying there anyway, and tying up police staff for the night too. There's probably no cctv in patient treatment areas and it would need audio too - which then means the medical staff potentially have to give evidence in a disputed case. If that happens every Fri and sat night you soon have a new problem!
DeleteIndeed, doubtless lots of extra work. Perhaps I am hopelessly naive, but is just ignoring crimes such as this the best way to deal with it?
DeletePossibly if anyone causing a disturbance was arrested and charged, word might eventually get round the "mob" that actually, kicking off in a hospital waiting room isn't worth it, because you end up getting a fine, and perhaps behaviour would improve. Then again, maybe I am hopelessly naive.
I do think it is appalling though, to abuse people trying to help you/your friend.
Quite possibly, but the mission of all the staff on the night (hospital or police) is usually to survive the shift rather than achieve societal change! Most a+e departments will have a zero tolerance policy on abuse, but the underlying issues are often alcohol or mental health related, or because someone is genuinely distressed at what is happening to themselves or a loved one. I'm not condoning it at all, but even if you doubled police resource available to a+e depts or could magic up the staff for court appearances, you will make little impact on the underlying causes.
DeleteSadly those most likely to offend in this way are probably also inclined not to pay fines. Simple rational punishments don't work for people who don't act rationally!
For section 4 and section 5 public order offences the sentencing guidelines quite rightly give, as a factor indicating greater harm, if the offence was committed at a school, hospital or other place where a vulnerable person might be present.
DeleteIn my sentencing I always take this into account and of course a patient and a member of staff are equally vulnerable and equally deserving of the protection we try to give them, unless the offender was the patient. Do I make a sentence heavier in such circumstances? Yes I do.
ABout ten years ago I took my elderly Aunt into hospital following a fall. As we sat in our cubible we could hear a constant tirade of abuse from one patient towards the nursing staff trying to treat him. Then he made the mistake of grabbing one of them...
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately for our miscreant, the patient in the next bed was clearly a soldier (in uniform), and had a couple of his colleagues with him. One of them stepped around to face our anti-hero, and very firmly told him "This ends now. If you've got a problem with that, we can pop outside for a chat about it."
Nurse released, no tying up police / courts, and not a further muff out of the idiot...
Bystander.........maybe you are out of touch ...(no offence meant).....But unless JPs get out and about and see reality we will not have a true perspective of the world that we arbitrate.........How many JPs never venture into a town centre on a Saturday night so miss the fun the police etc have to deal with...We need to get real .....
ReplyDeleteIt is seven nights a week in Whitechapel. CCTV in clinical areas is obviously an infringement on privacy. A good colleague to have is a 19 stone, rugby-playing, 6 foot three houseman. Behaviour modification is rather quick when your viewpoint is horizontal on a trolley. MInd you, the passing Salvation Army officer is not impressed...
ReplyDeleteUsing up consultants' valuable time when there was nothing too bad wrong with you. It's people like you - the middle-class worried well - who are bringing A&E to its knees. No wonder the other out-patients were furious. In future,stuff your nose with Vick and phone your surgery on Monday morning.
ReplyDeleteErm... an armchair diagnostician. Your first name isn't Jeremy by any chance ?
DeleteWhilst reading your article I remembered an earlier article you wrote on the 23rd of May 2015 when you got a tad huffy over TVP e-mailing you about a rave that could be taking place in your vicinity. This is what you wrote then:
ReplyDelete"Throughout the years, nothing has enraged the comfortable middle-aged more than the fear that somewhere young people are having fun.
Shakespeare called it 'wronging the ancientry' and Milton spoke of the 'sons of Belial, flown with insolence and wine' . I may, of course, be mistaken but I would summarise your attitude towards people who have to suffer from an illegal rave as 'tough, deal with it'. You have now encountered the type of people the police/ambulance/NHS members of the public deal with regularly and you didn't like it. 'Not too far round the corner from my cubicle was a group of apparently drunken young men, who were hurling foul mouthed abuse at hospital staff, ripe with indignant profanity. By about 11 p.m. police arrived from time to time, but the noise continued unabated. I asked the nurse who was taking a blood sample if this was a usual event and he said that it was about the norm for a Friday night'. What was it you said in your May post about the rave? 'Of course, I would not want them at the bottom of my garden, and I pity householders who are subjected to a couple of sleepless nights, but really, is that the worst that the police have to worry about?' Perhaps on that Friday night you were in A&E the police were stretched. We all have the gift of perfect hindsight but it is always a question of prioritising resources. Do the police attend A & E or do they deal with a missing person, domestic violence, serious RTC or disorder in the town centre? I don't know. I do know that TVP are stretched at weekends as they deal with a mix of urban problems and market town mayhem.
Yes, it is all 'very nasty'. Now perhaps, you will appreciate what front line police, NHS and other persons charged with dealing with these entitled yobs go through every night. I have spoken with magistrates who seem to think that getting assaulted is part of the job description for police/ambulance etc. As a retired police officer I just smile when members of the middle classes tell me of encounters with the 'rough boys from the council estate'and are shocked when they are not treated with deference. Perhaps your encounter may change you, as JP said on 15/2/2016 at 2210 you may be out of touch.
Retired
The underlying theme to this whole post seems to be that JPs should get out and about more and see what's going on in 'the real world'. I would suggest that the MoJ/HMCTS are encouraging us to do the exact opposite by ending centuries of local justice - no longer are we listed to sit in our home towns, but sent 50 miles to some remote corner of our county to which I have never been and know little about, and then expected to have some understanding of local affairs, local needs and local mores.
ReplyDeleteIf it's shoplifting I don't know the shopping area, if it's traffic I don't know the road layouts, and without local knowledge the magistrates' job becomes that much harder. Even probation and intervention agencies come under different areas at opposite ends of the county with different modus operandi. One day perhaps reason will prevail and we will again become local JPs - the MoJ is already suggesting local courts sitting in town or church halls (never mind the security and wifi needs) as they sell off the Crown Jewels (ie real estate) at a knockdown price. The current valuation of the 86 courts which HMCTS is unloading is given as £40 million, which puts them at an average price of under £500K each, the price of a semi-detached house around these parts.
Lord Jeremy Hutchinson (one of our greatest advocates, who will be 101 next month) recalls in his recent biography that early in his legal career he was appointed Recorder of Bath, until the Courts Act 1971 swept away Quarter Sessions and with them his title. “There had been a recorder of Bath for almost 700 years. As a result of the changes, the concept of local justice conducted in the interest of and with the participation of local inhabitants was removed in the name of efficiency. In my view, this was a fundamental error.”
Absolutely spot on by Retired. It's about time Magistrates and similar (MP's?) went out into the real world and saw some "rough boys" misbehaving. All they see is the defendant suited and booted at the hearing with their ambulance chasers apologising for their awful behaviour.
ReplyDeleteIn my time I used to take staff out from Tower Bridge court on ride-a-longs on nights. It opened their eyes and should be compulsory for Magistrates,MP's,social workers and the like to see what the scum are like in their natural habitat. After all David Attenborough goes to the jungle to study animals doesn't he? He doesn't film in London Zoo.
Jaded
Perhaps you need to spend some time in a court. They don't come suited and booted...
Delete...and "ambulance chasers" is a derogatory term for people who actually do as much to keep the wheels of justice working as any police officer.
I have spent numerous days in court. Last time was Monday this week.A good example of what happens in the real world.
DeleteScumbag shoplifter with 81 previous gets caught bang to rights by me yet again.The CCTV is crystal clear but on the advice of his "ambulance chaser" he says no comment to all questions. (Despite both being shown the footage).
He pleads not guilty and the private witness and I go to court (on my day off,no overtime).
Criminal watches the CCTV again in court and changes his plea to guilty just before the trial starts.It was listed for an afternoon so that's the waste of a slot.Not an unusual sequence of events.
Don't even compare my job to a defence lawyer.
Jaded
Which neatly brings us onto the fact that new magistrates are no longer - as was obligatory as soon as I was sworn in - taken to local police stations, probation offices or prisons to see what goes on behind the scenes. The reasoning in my Justices' area is given as "you might see potential, present or past clients", so it is now officially discouraged.
ReplyDeleteSo some of you would like to see some random "yobs" and then use that to inform your treatment and sentencing of a specific individual in Court? That's not remotely Justice. Not everyone who commits a particular offence is going to be like others you have seen in the street!
ReplyDeleteA Magistrate, or indeed Judge should be dealing with the specific background and offence of the person before them, not making asumptions based on a night bus trip in London!
A few years ago we were invited to go on patrol with the local plod for just this reason. Unfortunately it was blocked by our Justice's Clerk on the grounds that it would jeopardize our impartiality. My suggestion that we should all go out on the razzle to see how the cops treated us (purely in the interests of balance) was not taken up
ReplyDeleteRe Earlier Post:- Anonymous19 February 2016 at 11:29
ReplyDeleteI can understand why you are jaded.
In the case you described though the defendant would of course lose their maximum early guilty plea discount. They are still entitled to up to 10% discount but in the circumstances you described, they wouldn't get any discount at all from me, providing the CCTV had been disclosed by the date set by the court. They would then have seen before they got to the trial that it would have been pointless.
Unfortunately more and more dates ordered by the court for the service of information are not being followed by the CPS.
I am increasingly arguing with benches I am on that we should not permit into evidence information that the prosecution has failed to disclose when it should have done, often despite being reminded by the court and given further disclosure dates and when the defence has clearly been trying hard themselves to obtain it.
All this fancy talk will go nowhere.
ReplyDeletePeople want protection and will take it where they can find it.
Be it from sharia law or the local mafia . The police etc are too far away from reality.
And it wont be the first time that a strong man gets elected on a muscular law and order basis.